November 26, 2016 by Dr. Larry L Yates

Anymore Questions?
Let me start by saying that this is the single most difficult topic to understand concerning the Godhead. If you have a grasp on everything else but are still tackling this, you are ahead of the game.
There are some major problems with the Trinitarian view of Christ’s pre-existence. Let us take a look at that first.
The Trinitarian View
Trinitarians say that God the Son (the second person) existed in eternity and became the Son of God. It was the second person of the Godhead that is incarnate in the person of Christ Jesus. This is the trinitarian position.
Basically Jesus (God the Son) always was and when it was time for Him to come into the world, He did so as the Son of God. Remember, this is not the Spirit of the Father doing this, but the Spirit of God the Son. This is unscriptural on many levels. Let’s take a look.
Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
This verse of scripture sums up the whole question of the Godhead quite well. It is impossible for Christ to have pre-existed the incarnation as the second person or God the Son.
How could the second Spirit person of the Godhead exist eternally when there is only one Spirit to begin with? There is but one God, and that God is the Father.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
In the beginning there was just God. He was alone and by Himself. There is no God beside Him. He performed the act of creation alone.
This is a very easy understanding until we come to a statement that John makes to start his account of the gospel.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
We know that Jesus is the Word of God. The “Word” was in the beginning with God. How can this be? How can the “Word” be with God and yet God be alone? Further, how can Jesus be the Word that is with God and yet be God at the same time? This is a little confounding until we seek a better and clearer understanding of the whole picture.
Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
What does it mean that God created all things “by” Jesus Christ? What trinitarians will say is that God created all things using Jesus’ body as the vehicle of His physicality. Basically, that He used Christ as the vessel through which He created everything.
This wreaks havoc on the entire trinitarian doctrine of the incarnation. According to the Trinity, it is not God the Father, but God the Son, who manifested to the world in Christ. If the Father created the world from within the body of Jesus Christ, did He then get out of that body when it was time for God the Son to get in at the birth of Jesus? This is utter confusion.
If Jesus’ physical body was not the vehicle through whom the Father performed creation, then what does Paul mean when he says that God created the world “by” Jesus Christ?
Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
The Greek word used here for the English word ‘by’ is diot, pronounced ‘dee-ah”.
This word has a number of applications. It is defined as: causal, after, always, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause), by occasion of, of, by reason of, for the sake of, that, thereby, therefore.
As you can see there are many applications of this word. The word is applied as ‘because of, by reason of and for the sake of. This shows that Jesus’ body was not the physical vehicle used to create the world, but the reason why the world was created. The Father didn’t create the world using the physical body of Jesus. He created it with Jesus as the central focus of its purpose.
We know this is so because of verse 11…
Ephesians 3:11
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eternal Purpose
This verse tells us clearly that God did this act of creation for the eternal purpose that is in Christ Jesus. It was all part of God’s plan of the ages. He never does anything “off the cuff”. His plan is eternal. He never had a time where He had to figure it out, He just always knew. There was always a purpose and that purpose was fulfilled in Christ.
Truth of the Pre-Existence
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Isaiah 45:15
Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
This is clearly telling us that Jehovah is going to be the Saviour of mankind. This is a problem because we know that Jesus is the one who died for the sins of the world, effectively becoming the saviour.
When the words of these verses were spoken, had Jesus/Jehovah saved the world yet? Not physically. We had not yet seen the redeemer come and make the ultimate sacrifice. That makes these statements odd. God spoke of Himself in present tense as the saviour of the world, before the world was actually saved. How could He do this?
He rightfully spoke of Himself as Saviour prior to the salvation of man’s souls in His divine omnipresence. God, being omnipresent, transcends space and time. He fills the entire universe and does so in all times of existence.
God is the only one who can speak about something that is not going to happen for another 2,000 years as though it were right now. His omnipresence allows Him to exist at all times.
We call this foreknowledge. He can tell us things about what is going to happen before we ever get there, because He is already there. That is how He can call Himself Saviour before we ever see His saving action. In God time, it is already done.
This is much the same way that Jesus is spoken of in the present tense in the Old Testament. When John said that Jesus was in the beginning with God (Jn.l:l) it was in this God-time foreknowledge. Jesus was not physically present in His human body. He was there only in the omnipresent mind of God.
In fact, the word ‘word’ used in John 1:1 in the Greek is ‘logos’, meaning a thought, blueprint or plan. This shows us again that Jesus was the blueprint and the reason for creation, not the physical vehicle. Prior to the incarnation at Bethlehem, where Jesus was born of a woman, He existed only in the foreknowledge of God.
The Father did have a form in the Old Testament, but that form is not the man Christ. A few examples of this are found in the following verses.
The Angel with the Name
Exodus 23:20-23
[20] Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. [21] Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. [22] But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. [23] For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
Some people will say that this angel is actually Christ in the Old Testament. The whole stance is based on the angel bearing the name. It is the angel in whom the name is. They say this must be Christ in the Old Testament because this angel has the name of God. The problem is; we have the name of the Father as well. When someone is baptized into Christ they literally take upon themselves the name of God. Since you have the name, does that make you God?
Just because the angel came bearing the name of the Father that does not mean he is the Father. That just means that he came bearing the name, the same way a believer bears the name. This angel was literally part of the family of heaven. This angel was definitely not Christ.
The Angel Of The Lord
Zechariah 1:12-13
[12] Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of ]udah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years? [13] And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words.
The stance some take here is that the angel of the Lord is the body of God in the Old Testament. They say, when you see the bible say “angel of the Lord” that is God in an angelic bodily type form.
In some cases, when we see the angel of the Lord it is the Lord. This is true, but not in every case.
Matthew 1:20
[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
An angel comes to deliver the birth announcement of the Christ to Joseph, telling him not to worry because this baby was from God. This angel is called the angel of the Lord. Is this God manifesting to do this?
Luke 1:26
[26] And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
This is not God delivering this message, it is Gabriel. We aren’t going to say Gabriel is God next, are we? Gabriel is called the angel of the Lord. Just because an angel is said to be the angel of the Lord doesn’t mean it is the Lord Himself. It simply means that the angel belongs to God.
This angel in Zechariah is not the Lord, but an angel of the Lord. What we are seeing is an angel asking the Lord a question and the Lord replying to that question. This, again, is not Jesus.
Christ In The Old Testament
Daniel 10:5-6
[5] Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: [6] His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
Daniel 12:7
[7] And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
This one is the most interesting of all. The argument, again, is that this shows Christ in the Old Testament. Wouldn’t you know it? This time they got it. This is Christ! They are exactly right about one thing. This does show Christ in the Old Testament. However, this is not Christ in pre-existence. Confused?
Remember, we are not saying that Christ did not exist; we are saying He did exist, but only in foreknowledge. This is absolutely the same description given i)y John as to the one He saw in His vision. This is Jesus.
How do we understand what it was that Daniel is talking about? Who did Daniel see?
Daniel 10:7
[7] And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
What we must understand is the fact that this was not a physically present Christ. This was a vision. Notice that the other men did not see this man. This is because it was a vision exclusively for Daniel. God showed Daniel a vision of a victorious Christ in a time before He had ever corporeally existed. In other words, Daniel was allowed to look into God’s mind and see His future plan. What an amazing experience. God showed Daniel what He showed John, but Daniel saw it many years early.
Conclusion
The question is, did Christ pre-exist the incarnation? The answer is yes. Christ existed for all eternity, in the mind and foreknowledge of God, but not in physicality until the incarnation and birth in humanity.
God had a plan the whole time. Because God is omnipresent and reserved the ability of foreknowledge to Him, we could not always see that plan. Jesus was always the plan for mankind and through the ages certain people were blessed to have seen glimpses of this blueprint as God opened their eyes to be aware of His mind as He revealed it to them.
Concerning our human time, Christ did not exist until He was born to the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem. Before that, He was just a prophecy. The plan had not yet been fulfilled, so to mankind, He did not exist. It was in God time that He existed eternally, and that was only in the omnipresent, omniscient foreknowledge of God.

Any More Questions?

For many years, believers in the trinity have carefully planned out arguments that were sure to finally put an end to the annoying oneness doctrine that just won't go away. They plot against it with scripture (and without it when necessary) to try and defeat it in a match of doctrinal chess, in which they hope for the favorable end result, the always desired checkmate. They use one piece until it has been taken off of the board by their opponent and then skillfully they move to the next one, usually without even allowing for the point to be proven or explained. They wish to jump around from one topic to the next, never dwelling upon one for too long. Once the defeat is imminent, so is moving to another topic. And so, another piece off the board. This never stops them running a pawn down to your side to retrieve an old piece and bring it back into the game.
 
In the process of trying to overcome the doctrine of the oneness of the Godhead, they have used debate tactics and arguments that have never ceased to exist. In fact, the ones they bring up are just the same old questions in a recycled form. Solomon had it right when he said, "there is no new thing under the sun" (Eccl. 1:9). There is never a new question for us to answer. This is because there are only so many scriptures that can be even remotely misunderstood to be speaking of a plurality in the Godhead. These passages of the holy word of God that are "showing us the trinity" are very easily understood when looked at from a biblical viewpoint. It doesn't take much to see it once we look at it through the light of the whole counsel of the word, not just segregated scriptures.

When we rightly divide the word of truth, we soon see that there is but one God and that He is not in any way, shape or form triune in persons. There is no plurality concerning who God is or what His nature and essence are. When examining the holy writ we see that God is absolutely one and He is very clear about that fact. Even in the so-called "trinitarian passages", it is plain to see that Christ is God the Father manifest in the flesh.

Let us take a look at these age old questions presented by the three-person proponents. When we have finished examining those questions, they will have one to ponder themselves - are there 'Any More Questions?'

(Matthew 3:13-17)
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad Him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and earnest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. The he suffered Him. And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Trinitarian Question
Let us start off by getting right to the heart of the argument. The place where every trinitarian secretly thinks, that they are presenting to us for the first time, a revelation of the three persons. They all want to take us to see the baptism of Jesus. In this baptism, we are supposed to believe that we are seeing three divine persons at work. We are supposed to be in awe of the great glory of the trinity. The problem is that two out of three of the divine persons are not in attendance. There is only one divine person present and that was Jesus.

Why Baptism?
Here at this momentous occasion as Jesus is being baptized by His cousin John the Baptist, we see an inspiring scene of the power of the Almighty at work. Jesus had no need of repentance seeing He was a perfect man (I think we still agree on that), yet He was going down in the water for baptism. What we see is Him setting the precedent for what all believers would do during the reign of His great church on earth. Who can deny water when the Lord Himself subjected his own sinless life to the rite of water baptism?

Types and Shadows
Not only was Christ being baptized for an example for believers to come, but was also fulfilling the types and shadows of ages past. The tabernacle, the exodus, the flood, the story of Jonah, the first murder and the sower all had heavenly light cast upon them showing us the shadows of God's plan in heaven (Heb. 8:5). Every one of these stories and many more show the death, burial and resurrection as God's plan of the ages. Each element of this gospel plan having its own significance in each of the shadows is fulfilled in a part of each story. Eventually, these types would no longer just be shadows, but would be fulfilled in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord. Once the church began, we see the same plan in effect as sinners were introduced to the gospel message (Acts 2:38). We see repentance, water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost clearly identifying the gospel message that saves us (1 Cor. 15 1-4) to these same events in Jesus' Calvary experience. Death = Repentance, Burial = Water Baptism, Resurrection = Spirit Baptism.

In the tabernacle, the altar was the first place that the priest would stop, offering a sacrifice, thereby, identifying with the death and repentance. His next stop would be at the Brazen Laver as he washed himself before entering the inside. This is an obvious identification with the water baptism and burial. This is what Jesus was fulfilling at His baptism before entering into the ministry. The last place the priest would go was the Holy of Holies, being a type of heaven, but before he could go in he had to stop at the candlestick. The candlestick is a representation of the Holy Spirit baptism. We see the flames at Pentecost on the people's heads. All of these stories show the elements of the gospel when light are cast upon them. (Ex. 38-40)

At The Baptism
Now that we know why Jesus was being baptized in the first place, let us look at the baptism actually taking place. We look and see Jesus in the water; we see a dove descending upon Jesus; we hear a voice speak saying "this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased", and we see John the Baptist as the baptizer.

What oneness believers are missing, according to the trinitarians, is that the voice IS the first person (Father) and the dove IS the third person (Holy Spirit). However, like many of the claims that they make, the bible simply doesn't say that. My question is, if these occurrences are actually the persons of the Father and the Holy Spirit, first and third respectively, why doesn't the bible indicate so? Why doesn't it say that "the Father" spoke from heaven and the "Holy Spirit" was a dove? It says there was a voice, but doesn't specify the voice to a first person. It says that the Spirit of God descended upon Jesus "like a dove".

Further, it is very interesting that we must have missed in the scriptures where the "person" of the Holy Spirit was actually not a person, but a dove. So far, according to this passage, where we were sure to be convinced of the three person trinity, we have an invisible person who speaks but doesn't actually appear, another person in the water, and a bird. So we don't actually have three divine persons, we have one divine person, a voice and a bird.

This is the very reason why oneness proponents insist on using biblical vernacular. Using unbiblical terms such as persons is very damaging to scriptural understanding.

Oneness uses, instead of the word persons, the term manifestations; a very biblical word (1 Tim. 3:16). What we actually see here is not three divine persons, but one divine person. We see the Omni-present Spirit of God simultaneously producing a voice from the heavens, and manifesting in the likeness of a dove as a representation of the anointing coming upon the ministry of Christ.

Listen To The Voice
Let's listen to the voice for a second. Firstly, this is not the first time that God speaks from an unlikely place. He spoke from a donkey in Numbers 22. He spoke from a bush in Exodus 3. He also said that stones could cry out in Luke 19. Is the donkey, the bush or the stones going to be added to the list of persons next? Further, He now speaks from within the heart of Spirit-filled men (1 Cor. 12). So unless we are going to become as Mormons and call ourselves gods or "persons in the Godhead", this voice cannot be classified as a divine person. It is a manifestation of the voice of God speaking from the heavens, for the heavens are His to speak from.

Taking a closer look, we not only hear a voice, but actually have the words that the voice said recorded. "This is my beloved son IN whom I am well pleased." Colossians 1:19 says, "For it pleased the Father that IN Him (Jesus) should all fullness dwell." Paul was surely schooled on what happened at the baptism. When He said these words it was a clear parallel to the words of the voice at the baptism. What exactly was the Spirit of God saying? It pleased Him to dwell in this man Christ in all fullness. This shows that the Spirit didn't actually speak from heaven out of necessity, because of His location, for He was IN Christ as well. This doesn't mean that there were two spirits, one in heaven and one in Christ. No -it meant that the same Spirit that allowed His voice to be heard from heaven was also in Christ, therefore making "hrist the dwelling place of the Father (Col. 2:9).

 The Heavenly Dove
Now; on to the dove. First of all, there was no dove. It was the Spirit of God that descended like a dove. It was not actually a dove, it just moved like one. It literally perched itself upon Jesus like a bird. The dove was not a description of what John saw, but how John saw it move.

The Spirit like a dove was a symbol to John that the Messiah was in front of him. It was a manifestation with a purpose. The purpose wasn't to show us a third person, but to show John in whom the Spirit dwelt. It was to show John who was going to take away the sins of the world. How do we know this? John says so, "Behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Also, right after Paul said that it pleased the Father to dwell in Christ (Col. 1:19) he went on to say why. "And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things to Himself (Father)..." (Col. 1:20). The Father was the one taking away the sins of the world. He was the one doing the reconciling. He was doing it in Jesus. Once, Jesus told a man he was forgiven of his sins and the Jews called him a blasphemer. Their reason, "Why does this man speak these blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mk. 2:7). "...God (Father) was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself..."(2 Cor. 5:19).

In other places in the bible, the Holy Spirit is likened unto a dove, fire, clouds and even breath (Dt. 1:33, Jn. 20:22). So with this understanding we must assume that fire, clouds and even breath are all persons of the Godhead as well. So what John should have said was "the one who comes after me will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with a person." Or, since we know that the person the fire represents is the Holy Ghost, it should more accurately read "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with the Holy Ghost."

Conclusion
They will stop at nothing to get three divine persons to be present at that baptism, but no matter how long they endure in following this course, they will always end up with only one divine person in attendance. It is the one being baptized; Jesus the Christ.

Scripture References

Hebrews 8:5
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, see, sayeth he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee on the mount.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preach unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, ho that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Exodus 38-40
Chapters referenced from the Authorized KJV of the Bible.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

Numbers 22:28
And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times ?

Exodus 3:4
And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Luke 19:40
And He answered and said unto them, I tell you that, z, hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

1 Corinthians 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Colossians 1:19
For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell;

Colossians 2:9
For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and sayeth, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to •econdle all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Mark 2:7
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God only?

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Deuteronomy 1:33
Who went in the way before you, to search you out a place to pitch your tents in, in fire by night, to show you by what way ye should go, and in a cloud by.

John 20:22
And when He has said this, He breathed on them, and sayeth unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: