Blog Archives

Who Was Jesus praying To?

2/15/2015

(Over the course of the next few weeks I will be sharing a series of essays from an excellent new book by Pastor Joesph M. Guinta, Sr. “Any More Questions?” It’s purpose is to definitively answer the age old questions that are commonly presented to oneness believers concerning the doctrine of the Mighty God in Christ. I want to thank Pastor Guinta for his gracious permission to use his writings. I feel they are of benefit to oneness believers and trinitarians alike. Pastor Guinta’s message is Scripturally accurate and theologically flawless. Instructions for ordering may be found at the end of the blog).

(John 17:1)

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to heaven, iunl said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

The Trinitarian Question

This question always starts out the same way. "If Jesus is the Father, why is he praying to the Father? Is Jesus praying to Jesus?" This is what they ask as they snicker at us "helpless" oneness folks, who can only pray that this cup would pass from us, like Jesus did in the prayer we debate over.

The Trinitarian Dilemma

The thing that a Trinitarian, daring enough to bring up this topic, should always be reminded of is that this prayer that Jesus prayed does not present a problem for oneness theology. However, it presents a major catastrophe for the trinitarian concept of the Godhead from his perspective. Think about it... a co-equal, co-eternal, and co-essential person of the triune God asking for help from His co-existent partner person who he is equal to in every way. In other words, Jesus is saying, "not my will, but thine, be done" (Lk. 22:42) to a person who has the same will as He does. He is asking a co-omnipotent person, who by definition, has no more power than He has, to help him? He is asking that He could be glorified, concerning the glory that He had with the Father before the world was, when in all actuality they are both together already eternally co-existent? Why is Jesus praying to the Father if they are the same in every way measurable?

Wouldn't the co-equalness of the two persons make both wills the same? Wouldn't Jesus' statement, "Not my will, but thine, be done" actually be more accurate in saying, "Not my will, but thine, which is the same as mine, be done", making this prayer pointless? Wouldn't both persons will the same things to take place if they were in perfect tri-unity? Was there a disagreement within the Godhead?

This is an utter contradiction in the scriptures. If the Son, who is equal to the Father as a co-essential person of the Godhead, has the same will as the Father, why is He praying that the Father's will and not His own be done? The only explanation is that the human will of the man Christ Jesus is in direct subordination to the will of the Father which is Spirit. Christ as a man is in full submission to the will of the Spirit of God, His Father, who dwells inside of Him. The natural will of flesh is to remove itself from pain and anguish. This human will was overcome through prayer and placed in complete subjection to the will of the eternal Spirit of God, which was to save mankind through the atoning death, burial and resurrection of Christ, fulfilling the fore-ordained plan of redemption.

Omnipotent God

The next position that needs to be established is this question. Wouldn't the omnipotence of two equal persons make Jesus' power equal to that of the Father? If "God the Son" has the same power, being an equal person of the Godhead, as the Father has, why would Jesus have a necessity to pray to the Father for help? After all, according to the doctrine of the trinity, the Son is equal in every way to the Father, therefore He can do all that the Father can do. Why does the all-powerful person of the Godhead, "God the Son", need so much help from His equal, the Father? The answer is simple. Jesus is not the second co-equal person of the Godhead. In fact, He is the only person of the Godhead. There are no other "persons". Jesus said, "My Father is greater than I" (Jn. 14:28). This sure doesn't sound like equal persons to me. Jesus, because He was a human, was inferior to the Father.

Jesus, as a human, was not omnipresent, omnipotent or omniscient as the Father is. He did not know the end from the beginning (Mt. 24:36) nor was He able to exercise authority in the realm of the spirit except it is for the Father giving Him the authority to do so (Jn. 5:27). He was a human in every sense of the word, subjected to the Father. This is why He prayed for the Father's help.

Former Glory

Even more interesting is Jesus' prayer to the Father that He would be glorified again. He asks to be glorified by the Father's own self, like He was before (Jn. 17:5). The trinitarian position on the Godhead says that all three members of the Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are eternally co-existent. They are eternally co-equal persons. This prayer is a major setback to their doctrine.

The first and most obvious question is; why is God the Son asking for glory from the Father? Did He lose His own glory in the transition from heaven to earth? God the Son, according to the trinitarian standpoint, is equal to the Father in every way. The Athanasius Creed says, "There is one glory of the Father, another glory of the Son, and another glory of the Holy Spirit, yet there are not three glories, but one glory." Why is God the Son asking for the Father's glory, from His own self, when He has His own glory that is rightfully His? Was He not satisfied with His role in the Godhead? Was His co-equal glory lesser than the Father's in some way? Was His glory not enough to do the job? Why then did He need the Father, an equal person with the same glory, to glorify Him?

What many trinitarians will say is that there is only one glory, period. The Father and Son share an undivided glory. Well, isn't that a very contradictory statement? An oxymoron if I've ever heard one. Shared, but undivided glory? Seriously? Just to appease the appetite of the hungry trinitarian who only has this on his plate, let's examine the facts.

If the glory is a shared, yet undivided glory, why then is God the Son not able to take care of this glorification on His own? He shares in this undivided glory, meaning He should have access to it in its fullness. It is undivided, right? Why can't God the Son be glorified in His own glory? Why must it be the Father whose own self does the glorifying? The problem that they have here is that only one being can possess one glory - If it is truly one glory they believe in that is. Something cannot be shared, yet undivided. The Father alone has glory, and He will not GIVE it to another (Is. 42:8).

Co-existence

Even further into this point we find that Jesus is asking to once again have the glory with the Father that He once had (Jn. 17:5). The immediate question is - did the situation between Father and Son change? Did the two coexistent persons become non co-existent during the time of the Son's visitation to the earth? Are the two persons immutable? Can God be changed? "For I am the Lord, and I change not..." (Mai. 3:6). According to this scripture from a Trinitarian understanding; the Father and the Son had glory together, but at the point of the incarnation of God the Son in the Son of man, everything changed; and the glory of the second person, God the Son, could no longer have been intertwined with the glory of the first person, God the Father. In this passage, Jesus is praying to have the two glories, become one again. Problem is, I thought the two glories were one the whole time? I thought God was immutable and couldn't change? What I can tell you is the inevitable. This will be chalked up to God's spiritual infinacy. We just can't comprehend it because we are finite humans.

They are right when they say there is only one glory. Where they go wrong is in determining who that one glory belongs to. The Father alone has glory (Is. 42:8). He shares it with no one. He alone is God ((Is. 44:8). There is none beside Him (Is.44:6). The Son has no glory of His own. In fact, He cannot even do any works except it be by the Father that wells in Him (Jn. 14:10). Understanding this glory question will go a long way i a helping someone understanding the Godhead question. Jesus was asking to be glorified by the Father's own person because it was unquestionable that the Father was the only one who could glorify Him (Jn. 17:1). Returning unto the former glory that was had since before the world was, is also a very easy understanding. No need to multiply glories. It was the glorious Father who dwelt in the Son (Jn. 14:10). It was not God the Son incarnate in the Son of God. It was the Father, full of glory. Jesus' prayer simply stated that He wanted to return unto the place where He was not in flesh on this earth anymore. He wanted to be glorified in a spiritual body with no more fleshly pain and agony. He wanted to complete His work as the sacrifice and return to His glorified form.

Conclusion

Truth is, Jesus, is praying, just like anyone else who prays. Jesus is indwelt with the Spirit in a far more complete way than a Christian believer is. For we have been given OF the Spirit in measure (Acts 2:17), but in Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col. 2:9). Even with that, we do not believe that Christ is a half-man half-God hybrid. He is 100% God and 100% man. Because He is 100% God, He has the God-authority; because He is 100% man, He has a need to pray. What is the problem with Jesus praying to the Divine Spirit that dwelt fully in Him? We are not saying that Jesus' human side prayed to His divine side in the sense that Trinitarians accuse us of doing. It is not so much that He prayed from His human side as much as it is He prayed because of His human side. We are saying He prayed because He was a complete human, even though He was indwelt by the Spirit of the Father. The location of the Spirit of God does not determine whether or not a human should pray. It is no different for Jesus, who is fully human, in His human necessity of prayer.

The funny thing is that when the tables are turned on the trinitarians, they use the very same argument to explain why Christ prayed. Why is it alright for Jesus to pray when they need Him to pray, but not when He is praying for the oneness people? In Luke's account of Jesus' prayer, he states that an angel came and strengthens Jesus (Lk. 22:43). Why would the almighty God need strength from an angel, whom He created? The trinitarians will quickly refer to the dual nature of Christ to explain this. They will say it was the human side that needed strength. So, let me get this straight. Jesus prayed because of His humanity and God sent an angel to strengthen Him? Isn't that funny? It is incorrect that He prayed because of humanity, but that same prayer was answered because of humanity?

Next question...

To order your copy of “Any More Questions” contact the author at:
Rev. Joesph M. Guinta, Sr.
720 Riddle St. #10
Howell, MI 48843

0 Comments

Any More Questions?

2/7/2015

0 Comments

(Over the course of the next few weeks I will be sharing a series of essays from an excellent new book by Pastor Joesph M. Guinta, Sr. "Any More Questions?" It's purpose is to definitively answer the age old questions that are commonly presented to oneness believers concerning the doctrine of the Mighty God in Christ. I want to thank Pastor Guinta for his gracious permission to use his writings. I feel they are of benefit to oneness believers and trinitarians alike. Pastor Guinta's message is Scripturally accurate and theologically flawless. Instructions for ordering may be found at the end of the blog).

For many years, believers in the trinity have carefully planned out arguments that were sure to finally put an end to the annoying oneness doctrine that just won't go away. They plot against it with scripture (and without it when necessary) to try and defeat it in a match of doctrinal chess, in which they hope for the favorable end result, the always desired checkmate. They use one piece until it has been taken off of the board by their opponent and then skillfully they move to the next one, usually without even allowing for the point to be proven or explained. They wish to jump around from one topic to the next, never dwelling upon one for too long. Once the defeat is imminent, so is moving to another topic. And so, another piece off the board. This never stops them running a pawn down to your side to retrieve an old piece and bring it back into the game.

In the process of trying to overcome the doctrine of the oneness of the Godhead, they have used debate tactics and arguments that have never ceased to exist. In fact, the ones they bring up are just the same old questions in a recycled form. Solomon had it right when he said, "there is no new thing under the sun" (Eccl. 1:9). There is never a new question for us to answer. This is because there are only so many scriptures that can be even remotely misunderstood to be speaking of a plurality in the Godhead. These passages of the holy word of God that are "showing us the trinity" are very easily understood when looked at from a through the light of the whole counsel of the word, not just segregated scriptures.

When we rightly divide the word of truth, we soon see that there is but one God and that He is not in any way, shape or form triune in persons. There is no plurality concerning who God is or what His nature and essence are. When examining the holy writ we see that God is absolutely one and He is very clear about that fact. Even in the so-called "trinitarian passages", it is plain to see that Christ is God the Father manifest in the flesh.

Let us take a look at these age old questions presented by the three-person proponents. When we have finished examining those questions, they will have one to ponder themselves - are there 'Any More Questions?'

Who Was At The Baptism of Jesus?

(Matthew 3:13-17)

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad Him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. The he suffered Him. And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Trinitarian Question

Let us start off by getting right to the heart of the argument. The place where every trinitarian secretly thinks, that they are presenting to us for the first time, a revelation of the three persons. They all want to take us to see the baptism of Jesus. In this baptism, we are supposed to believe that we are seeing three divine persons at work. We are supposed to be in awe of the great glory of the trinity. The problem is that two out of three of the divine persons are not in attendance. There is only one divine person present and that was Jesus.

Why Baptism?

Here at this momentous occasion as Jesus is being baptized by His cousin John the Baptist, we see an inspiring scene of the power of the Almighty at work. Jesus had no need of repentance seeing He was a perfect man (I think we still agree on that), yet He was going down in the water for baptism. What we see is Him setting the precedent for what all believers would do during the reign of His great church on earth. Who can deny water when the Lord Himself subjected His own sinless life to the rite of water baptism?

Types and Shadows

Not only was Christ being baptized for an example for believers to come, but was also fulfilling the types and shadows of ages past. The tabernacle, the exodus, the flood, the story of Jonah, the first murder and the sower all had heavenly light cast upon them showing us the shadows of God's plan in heaven (Heb. 8:5). Every one of these stories and many more show the death, burial and resurrection as God's plan of the ages. Each element of this gospel plan having its own significance in each of the shadows is fulfilled in a part of each story. Eventually, these types would no longer just be shadows, but would be fulfilled in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord. Once the church began, we see the same plan in effect as sinners were introduced to the gospel message (Acts 2:38). We see repentance, water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost clearly identifying the gospel message that saves us (1 Cor. 15 1-4) to these same events in Jesus' Calvary experience. Death = Repentance, Burial = Water Baptism, Resurrection = Spirit Baptism.

In the tabernacle, the altar was the first place that the priest would stop, offering a sacrifice, thereby, identifying with the death and repentance. His next stop would be at the Brazen Laver as he washed himself before entering the inside. This is an obvious identification with the water baptism and burial. This is what Jesus was fulfilling at His baptism before entering into the ministry. The last place the priest would go was the Holy of Holies, being a type of heaven, but before he could go in he had to stop at the candlestick. The candlestick is a representation of the Holy Spirit baptism. We see the flames at Pentecost on the people's heads. All of these stories show the elements of the gospel when light are cast upon them. (Ex. 38-40)

At The Baptism

Now that we know why Jesus was being baptized in the first place, let us look at the baptism actually taking place. We look and see Jesus in the water; we see a dove descending upon Jesus; we hear a voice speak saying "this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased", and we see John the Baptist is the baptizer.

What oneness believers are missing, according to the trinitarians, is that the voice IS the first person (Father) and the dove IS the third person (Holy Spirit). However, like many of the claims that they make, the bible simply doesn't say that. My question is, if these occurrences are actually the persons of the Father and the Holy Spirit, first and third respectively, why doesn't the bible indicate so? Why doesn't it say that "the Father" spoke from heaven and the "Holy Spirit" was a dove? It says there was a voice, but doesn't specify the voice to a first person. It says that the Spirit of God descended upon Jesus "like a dove".

Further, it is very interesting that we must have missed in the scriptures where the "person" of the Holy Spirit was actually not a person, but a dove. So far, according to this passage, where we were sure to be convinced of the three person trinity, we have an invisible person who speaks but doesn't actually appear; another person in the water, and a bird. So we don't actually have three divine persons, we have one divine person, a voice and a bird.

This is the very reason why oneness proponents insist on using biblical vernacular. Using unbiblical terms such as persons is very damaging to scriptural understanding.

Oneness uses, instead of the word persons, the term manifestations; a very biblical word (1 Tim. 3:16). What we actually see here is not three divine persons, but one divine person. We see the Omni-present Spirit of God simultaneously producing a voice from the heavens, and manifesting in the likeness of a dove as a representation of the anointing coming upon the ministry of Christ.

Listen To the Voice

Let's listen to the voice for a second. Firstly, this is not the first time that God speaks from an unlikely place. He spoke from a donkey in Numbers 22. He spoke from a bush in Exodus 3. He also said that stones could cry out in Luke 19. Is the donkey, the bush or the stones going to be added to the list of persons next? Further, He now speaks from within the heart of Spirit-filled men (1 Cor. 12). So unless we are going to become as Mormons and call ourselves gods or "persons in the Godhead", this voice cannot be classified as a divine person. It is a manifestation of the voice of God speaking from the heavens, for the heavens are His to speak from.

Taking a closer look, we not only hear a voice, but actually have the words that the voice said recorded. "This is my beloved son IN whom I am well pleased." Colossians 1:19 says, "For it pleased the Father that IN Him (Jesus) should all fullness dwell." Paul was surely schooled on what happened at the baptism. When he said these words it was a clear parallel to the words of the voice at the baptism. What exactly was the Spirit of God saying? It pleased Him to dwell in this man Christ in all fullness. This shows that the Spirit didn't actually speak from heaven out of necessity, because of His location, for He was IN Christ as well. This doesn't mean that there were two spirits, one in heaven and one in Christ. No, it meant that the same Spirit that allowed His voice to be heard from heaven was also in Christ, therefore making Christ the dwelling place of the Father (Col. 2:9).

The Heavenly Dove

Now; on to the dove. First of all, there was no dove. It was the Spirit of God that descended like a dove. It was not actually a dove, it just moved like one. It literally perched itself upon Jesus like a bird. The dove was not a description of what John saw, but how John saw it move.

The Spirit like a dove was a symbol to John that the Messiah was in front of him. It was a manifestation with a purpose. The purpose wasn't to show us a third person, but to show John in whom the Spirit dwelt. It was to show John who was going to take away the sins of the world. How do we know this? John says so, "Behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Also, right after Paul said that it pleased the Father to dwell in Christ (Col. 1:19) he went on to say why. "And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things to Himself (Father)..." (Col. 1:20). The Father was the one taking away the sins of the world. He was the one doing the reconciling. He was doing it in Jesus. Once, Jesus told a man he was forgiven of his sins and the Jews called him a blasphemer. Their reason, "Why does this man speak these blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mk. 2:7). "...God (Father) was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself..."(2 Cor. 5:19)

In other places in the bible, the Holy Spirit is likened unto a dove, fire, clouds and even breath (Dt. 1:33, Jn. 20:22). So with this understanding we must assume that fire, clouds and even breath are all persons of the Godhead as well. So what John should have said was "the one who comes after me will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with a person." Or, since we know that the person the fire represents is the Holy Ghost, it should more accurately read "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with the Holy Ghost."

Conclusion

They will stop at nothing to get three divine persons to be present at that baptism, but no matter how long they endure in following this course, they will always end up with only one divine person in attendance. It is the one being baptized; Jesus the Christ.

To order your copy of "Any More Questions" contact the author at:
Rev. Joesph M. Guinta, Sr.
720 Riddle St. #10
Howell, MI 48843

0 Comments

Author

Dr. Larry Yates is a Minister, Author and Bible Teacher and with Doctorates in Theology, Religion. and Ministry. He is President of Mineola Bible Institute and Seminary in Mineola, TX as well as on the Board of the International Apostolic University-London, in the UK. Additionally, he is a member of the International Apostolic Council.

RSS Feed

We desire not only to see believers live victoriously, but to help them become rooted and grounded enough in God’s Word to reach out and teach others these same principles